lou:ll of the rat traps that we just d up making for smarter rats. welcome, everybody, i am neil cavuto. after alof the scandal revelations in these elaborate systems to go after bad guys, the bad gs getmaer and avoid them. congressman mike rogs isn't giving any specifics but he is saying that they are changing their behavior by apparently not usg the technologies on which we are spying. whether that means we are not sending text messges, i frankly

have no idea, but it is pretty clear that the bad guys are ndg other ways. so we are very much on the line. all of these phone call breeches and e-mailreeches and text bridges and all of it for for nothing. the guy who leaked them, f from here. edwards noted in asking for protection from the chinese govement. i think itit's it is safe to say that the chinese will comy and it isprobably not to his liking. to the military experts who say@ that that is what happens when stuff like this gets out, the former assistant seccetary of dense is that once it is out, we always have another way t move around. wayne simmons is with us.

he has a hard handshake and he can crush u with that. [applause] let's get to it. onceethis ges rleased, any smart badguys going o find a way aroundhis, rht? >> absolutely. not ly a way around it, but in the paswere either criminal organizations were terrorists found out, sometis they find a way to track our communities b dismantled organization with what they believed to be what we know about. not only do we have to fid them again, but we have to figure out who to find and what network and groups to find again. lou: you are saying that he was a hero.

but no, he is not. how do you feel? >> i am confident that my positi has only been strengthened since we ound out that he's being ebriefeded by te intelligence apparatus. this is absolutely spot on when she says that it's very damaginn. because what isout there in the unitedtas or around the world, the first thing that they do are using human capabilities which are messages being used and sent by runners as opposed to getting on the oner getting on the nternet. it is going to make our job much moreifficult, especially since we no longer ave the human intelligence capabilities th we once had

neil: worthiest srategies or methods, theiphone records, were they crucial in tracking down baduys? >> i guess we hadthis with the boston bombings and that did not stopthe to brothers. >> i do no have inside information in this particular progm. but being able to ack the communications not only those within a passing to e united states, but is not a data is critic not only to identify and track and have insight into what these ganizations ar doing, but in he case f t bombings and other activities that we did not t ahead of. to go back and see what did we miss and w do we reestablish and get insight intoossie future activity?

nnil: i know you're talking about those who wer hrming us d wanted to do this to kill us. but i think that itis a good thing that this came to ligh in the name of protecting us, my immediate reactionas what is this all abou so i'm gng to ask you that. what the heck is this all about. y what you will about the bad guys and now we will find ways around it. why was this haappeng in the first place and to what end. how could it possiblybe good. >> happily i will do so. >> i will say that the concerns are justified. i have o reason to think that

those americans feel the way you do, bu they are not justified. i will tell you this. this gs back dirctly ,-com,-c ma in my opinion, directly to not only bruce allen, butthe cia and at the nsa. cause we have programs called unterintelligence risk indicators. those are progams that are being consistenty d constantly run against o own people. only to continue to monitor them with a top-secret cleance. especially thosehat have access to intelligence and they need tcontinue to monitor. so they can find out if our standards have changed. that is where i have the biggest prlem is we want to counter that, we have too many eople talking about that. we have 1.4 million americans

havehe ability to do what snow today. but there are a lot of people who have a lot of god >> most people understand that they are compartmented. which means that they are segregated. neil: you don't think they're more there are me like him? >> i hope that there are not a lot more like him. okay. well, maybe ou can kick butt here. >> be careful. >> could imagine. thank you both very much. the congressman is trying to doesn't go overboard. we have a bill in the congressman is explaining what

this bill is about. >> thank you for havi me on again. it is a bill that i'm working on with john coers, he is the ranking democrats. we have a lot of cosponsors and what we are trying to do is narrow the scope of the patriot act so that it is only targeting the ople that we want to target, foreign agents. neil: how would you know? >> you may not kno that the innocent party is the culprit. >> under the wayt is being interpreted, they are treating all aericans this way. that is why when you hear this, is being don under the paiot act. whether that is being figured as relevant information, even though all of those people nd most of the people, most of them

have no ts to terrorism. neil: as you know, iplay an exrt on tv. [laughter] neil: i think i qualify. >> i thi by trying to hold back on this sweeping spying of everyone, you en up missing lot of folk by bringing itback to just the fks who you think are potential people. >> we have a fourth amendment and we have to folloit. you ca also limite all terrorism within t united states by having his. they can watch everyone's family all day. neil: i had joe liebean on te phone and he was witme last night. you know, i can't get into specifs, but i can tell you that this very proam has led trouble.

you know, you never know. but now you rein it in i a with you onths. heaven knws what will ce our y. >> youcannot use anecdotes to justify this. the reasothe founders put in place is to protecc our ights. there is a balance betw security and lerty. it is presented in the constution and the fourth amendment.@ that is whatat we want to prote. it is important to note that a lot of members of congress aren't even given access he law because the secret court opinions -- we do not know unless you e on this committee. we do not ow how the law is actually woring. neil: will be pa of the powow of the indviduals? >> it has no changed mind.

if anything, it has emboldened me. weave classifie riefings. there are docments that we would want access to. though that i'm working on with representative conyers, it would provide us critical informn so that we can represent our constituents. >> thank u, sir. >> thank you, neil. neil: i have not even gotten into the latest news tis week. as we have reported, the very same law that we are coming to find that low-wage workers, they n't afford ths. wasn't that the point of affordable health

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>> there is nowherto go. i represent thisparty. you said that the rent is too high. neil: i love that guy. where is this guy when you need him? now, apparently this health care law talks about the uninsur. and many were supposed to help cannot afford it goingnto z macdonald. scotty, that is incredible. >> it is incredible but expected. we knew that like all escalatin problems, affordable health care is just gointo st there. we are making sure that tho whcannot aford itcould.

neil: th other guys who don't want it, the were going to be part of this, they can't afford it. we turned everythingupside own >> it is so gh and affordable that it may be out of reach. we have both side to work out the kinks and now we ve the irs it is going to dictate what is affordable and what is adequate coverage as t wave of the future. neil: adam? >> find this an amusing idea. >> what we have instead is that this care is unaffordable for some of the workers involved. because there s an eception

put in for some of the employers. this was an effor to make th easier.3 this is a piece of legislation that needs work. one among many things that nds work. >> okay, augment r reve dust and make the insurance affordable. >> we are excusing a lot law that everne work it out. when it comes loaded with 20 plus taxes. >> you could sto this train wrecven though it is the w of the land. you could stop it nw and start start from scratch. >>etting ion track, it's already a train wreck. it never should have gotten o of the nation itself. health insurance is being

governed b he dpartment of health and human services an the irs is policing it why are we allowing this? thing made sense about this bill. this is apolitical stand to try to sit here and take over. including the orders of barack obama continuing to say that he has heahcare. @% will lerally put us in grave. >> okay, it kind of reminds me of this. the fa of the matter is that it has gaping wound everywhere. >> and fes like thatbecause it seems like there's a ot of nd-aids on it. i get it. but that is part of the problem the wathat they rammed it through. it is very costly to do that, i puts a lot of this onthe irs.

it makes a t of mistakes that we know and also medicare and a ho of other tngs that the government asks us to do. >> i mean, are you goingo hae the irs do this to the degree they planned to do it or are you going to find a way to make his more affordable so more rticate because you make an exemption foa lot of them. you take hat away, part-time, fu-time. you see what i'm getting at. u have to undo a lot of this. >> why not look back and say that it's n worth it. try it from scrat. >> well, i'm thinking of a compprison par of the public wos project. you cannot un- dig the ditches i'm not saying this is a pererft piece of legislation.

if we had a number of people who are geing health insurce, which is o of the achievements of t legislation, or killer on the other hand, iunerstd that you all would likeo kill it i think let's make it better. >> i would just sa this. these e the basic points tt we have srupted and upended our entire health care system. we are pretty satisfied with that coverage. for the 10%%who did not, we are not always so keen on tis. some are not interested on taking it on. othe cnot afford i. all of that for what? well, that is the thing that we have to look at. we did this to help our eonomm. but we have seen is that people are t hiring full-time employees beuse people are

having two or three partime jobs because their bses cannot afford obamacare we are seeing the unemployment lines growing because of obamare d we are going to see it even more. neil: you would think thaad would feel guilty, but he does not. >> we didt to gi more people access to health care. neil all of those 10they generally weren't alwaysnto it. but the bottom line is for what? >> iould just say that we are not done. >> but we should nver have let it start. neil: in the meantime, quit neil: in the meantime, quit complaining out the nsa there is a pursuit we all share. better life for your family, a better opportunity for your business,

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neil: the next time you re asked whether you should agree to the terms and conditions ming you better ad all of them. one of my favorite lawrs says this whole nsa right to spy on to is pretty much all spellants out there. teeny tiny blak-and-white. >> on the one hand at it like you agree to this. on the other hand it is all in the name of nationalsecurity. >> where did i agree to this? >> somewhere in the 20 or 30 or 40 pag thatyou need atriple sized magnifying glass to read, it is in there. but it is so easy these ds he

just c on a button. neil: nowhere did it sa the nsa can spy on you. but to your point, there are a lot of vague referenceso the send and third parties. >> we reserve the right. neil: yes, w reserve the right and that isa populaa line. they say that any timm we do th, it will be on this. >>ell, there you go. i mean,it is amazng and we take it for granted. >> but if we don't sign that are kept at. >> we don't y that. >> only until there is a problem. once you have a problem in the attorney general's ccent, ut

consumer would actually be able to rd that. it is part of an agreement and you have to agree to make it very easy for someone to read it and understand it and conspicuous enoughhthat it is very important that we pay attention. neil: you knnow, it is actually spelled out that you signed up for is. but it doesn't say that you might have his where you will have to deal th it. but it is such a broad overview such a warning heads up that almost anythg can hppen, including etting attacked by aliens. you should just deal with it. >> your liabity, and we see %-go right to teeagreement. go to the ticket. ere are and limitations of liability.

>> there are many people ware curious. >> so now what do you say to americans? >> someone should step up to the plate e and saat i am going to create a new company where you don't have to agree to this. and if anyone makes me, i'm going to saythat this is america and you better have a court order signed by a judge. neil: i'm going to make them sign an agreement fo me. >> well, maybe two cups and a string will be your phones. [laughter] 's the one i hate lawyers, not like you, but i do hate thm. [laughter] neil: thank you so much. well, we are trying to keep

track of these indivuals at the irs. will our next gue will talk about this coming out nxt at a d cleaner, we replaced peoplewith a mh. wh custers di't like it. so why do nks do it? wh hello? custers di't like it. hello?! ifr bank doesn't let you talk to real person /7, you need an alal. hell ally bank. your money needs an al.

neil: we arefixing what you think is just an oil leak.

your brakes are gone. your ctalytic converter, maybe ditch the car? betweetargeting personal health records and hose refusing credit cards, maybe ju ditch the irs. we have melissa francis here. there is a lot of craziness. >> it is ouofcontrol and no one woullike to get rid of them more than i would. please do not bother me. neil: look at you [laughter] >> that isight. obously it is not going to happen. t it seems like every cabinet open here, sometng else comes u. more than a thousand cases in the past twoearsthey have emplees who misuse their corporate credit card for te

s. they didn't have enough funds in the account to cover it, they did l these things. and then they fod that they weren't ev punishing them for that they were more lenent with their employers and thr employees were with the taxpayer. neil do you think any of this -- and we talk out a lot of conservative tea party actions the. >> iwish. >> i don't tnk we wilsee much of this. >> people keep saying that we have all of these hearings. we are going to have a big reform. i don't think that's going to ppen. this is the problem with government. is is why we don't want government -- the person has to be sitting tre for it to be spent properly. they are invisible handlers. that is why capitalism woks.

so if the guy who owns the store isn't there very often more y goes missing. the guwhwas working there -- neil: if you are charging $5 for a pack of gum, some people would steal it. >> i don't think we get o the fundamental problem at times great if we don't do that, none of this will change the. neil: yes. >> it wathe same thing where we saw headlines of what was going on with our taxpayer money. you laugh and then you cried. neil: so this is kind of frittered away? >> pbably not even that. i don't think a lot changes. i think that this is the fundental problem wi government. you put people in chage monit other people and corruption kes over >> we forget that right after watergate, there were l of

these, you know, the laws and new rules th were put in. >> they are farway in washington. you can see wha these people are in otherwise it gets out of contl and its hun nature. you cannot help it. neil: lissa francisthk you so much. this just in, microsoft cel is coming to the iphone. and the rt comes ith it. and the rt comes ith it. actually the heat may have [ male announr ] in your lifetime,

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woman: what do you mean, homeowners insurance doesn't cover floods? [ heart rate ireases ] man: a few inches of wer caused all ts? [ heart rate increes ] woma: but i don't en live near t water. what youon't know ouflood insurance may ock you -- including the fact that a preferr risk policy starts as w as $129 a year. for an agent, ll the number that appears on your screen. il: this just t in. apple is not deadyet. that has not stopped it from hookinup with microsoft in what culd be a very big development.

ssifically, microsof suite of programs inudin word d excel are coming to aniphone near you. maybe that comes later with the ipad we have a guest on whether this opening item confirms that this is that of a copyca what do you think? >> i think apple is a copyt. >> you are taking a productthat everody doesn't like, you are talking about losing market share. i don't understand why it is a big deal. >> why don't you just ay along >> let me show you how it is done. it is heinous becae they have to choose this. they are in a position here google is the one who is killing

them. they are killingicrosoft and ape at t same time. so apple has to make their hardware me exciting. that's i gave up on other things >> crrtical revis. what do you think. are you buying this? >> no, i am not. how many are you going togive away? the businesses that are signing up, they havto wait a long time. they have to wait a while to get their money. it's a difficult situation. another competitor as well. that doesn't make sense, don buy it. >> we think it will be the leader? >> yes, it will be because of mobile. when you can have the global positioning with all of the smart phones, youe walking by

them down the street. and ttey give you a offer. it is a 50% offer on somethg that you like and you gettis, th model works becae 's in the present. so this model will work. they do haveethis. and do think that it is worth the $9. >> that is true. >> we have major news controversy this week. finally, if group on his back upon, i this back on? it is hard press. you know, i look at it and woud we mak of what this is telling us? >> the nikkei saying that

obviously when the japanese federal reserve started in september, they said look me in the eye, read my lips it is going up and he yen is going up very high. so everybody went into that trade. i think that a three bladed blind dog could do tat. when the musi stops, everybody went out the same dor e power of that includes that we will not have one more run because of the money that we made. >> that's an inteeresting point. tthousands of miles om our own sure, i don't buy it. >> exaly. i know the because they are there time every year. the thing is that the s&p 500

has been dirtly correlated f a long tim@ what tha meansfor people thinking about ben bernanke and how we are doing things here, w3 may not like to admitit, but it is critil to what is happenin neil: how many central banks are basis? so you're you are free to what is going to happen? >> wel finish up. >> okay. >> if they back ff, youwill have to step up to a program that is three times the size of a proportional basis of what it is doing here. >> iis a suicide mission for economics. th want to hav inflation. if they are succsful in getting this, the interest rates are going to have to go up and they will se value and then the whole thing crumbles.

so it is a mission and yet they have000 baby boomers are thee retiring and witdrawing mony aad it is going to end badly the. neil: okay. we will see how it goes. thank you both so much. this guy can be a free speech revolutionary. i want you to me a former spch whistlebwer.

neil: broline is not sure what to make of edwards notedthat he does know what could come of all the buzz created.

because efor there was a certain unassuming technician. rk had discored that the company was allowing the government to steal a loof customer data and further do s without a point. the company just did it again andgai. that was seven year ago. it is pretty sobering stuffhen i look back at what you went through and wh you dealt with anwhat you warned us about. it got everyone involved and it contues. >> it with a legal ackground. i still thinkii is illegal. it depends on how much outrage there isn the country.

congress is running scared. both parties are. neil: it can be short-lived. it was in your case seven years ago. i do remember uite ell this outrage. but it did not last. i would thnk that this may have been enough for th stuff. >> it is because congressn both partiesrepublican and democratic put a lid on mass by including the immunity bill that gave immunity to the phone companies. and then they made it lo like things were fixed. neil: they essentiallytaled about this. the environment at the time was we were kneeeep in iraq.

thisas a primy concern. but we had reminders the summer before maybe that was dominating the conversation. >> i think it is created y the administration to make people scared. youknow, but this did not ppen in boston, didn't? >> no, it did not. do yousee him as a misguided case? >> i thinkhis man as a heroic figure who makes a prnciple stands f the constitution. that is perfectly clear. and here it is a great danger. and great while doing was

exposed. the. neil: thathere was a process for that. >> i don't know what it wa in your case. but there is an inspector general. have y noticedthat w have over 100 million amicans phone records and we are doing this willy-nilly and we are increasing it. >> he leaed from the experience of previous whistleblowers. he quit right ter 9/11. he found out that there wa apparatus onlon foreigners but domeically as well. they raided his house. ther wasn individual who went through channels, hewent through the inspector general.

he went to congressial committees. he was basically not listened to. they were watching all this happ over the years adthey realize that this gets you nowhere. you have to get out there and that i the only reon and the only way we are having this conversation now. >> what is going to happen to him? >> i dnot know. i suspect that they would lke to capture m physically and bring him back to this country to have a good trial. >> i do not think the chinese will release him. >> oh, i think that they wil. they want oaintain good rade relations. >> and not but not before they get everything out ofit can? >> that is theoretally possible. ido't ink it is part ofthis for ade reasons. >>kay. we thank you vey much.

>> thank you. >> not a moment too soon. never mind whether supermanill be a hit. what is going on withll of these scandals. ♪ [ agent sth ] i'vfound software that intrigues me. it pears it's an age of good. ♪ [ agent smith ] ge software connectpatients to nses to the right machines while dramatically ducing waiti time. [ telephone ringing ] now a waiting om ist a room. [ static warbles ]

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[inaudible] >> he was convicted that the world wasn't ready. neil: bigge ovie openi of all time. its hard to sa i am btting that not only does this latest superman look god, but it comes at a time scandal weary americs are looking for anyone anything. >> the american people really

are oking fofor heroes and now weave the gllup poll that shows that congress has its worst showing since 1973. even some in the media rank higher. >> surprisingly, small business are the secondd most trted institution. so it's really interesting. peopleewant to go the movie and we don't have those superheroes in washington just yet. >> members of congress do not get t th that same thing. th remind you more were they are asically easily manipulated and bendable and they make a really big mess k a long time to clean up. i believe that we will see ings like obamacare. >> someone did a little anlogy.

i always wondered about som movies that come its at different times. the last super incarnation. i'm wonderi whether the environment actually helped a character like this. >> i do not doubt it. the history of the oppression, we had all of theserich people living a happy life. peop wanted to be uplifted by those stories. we have a lot of problems in our society and in ourconomy right now. i do not doubt tha people want to hear this. i think it is unrealistic of them to o congressr individual cesspeople to b their heroes. the system just isn't set up r th collective boy to produce a hero. i don't think there are any easy answers to the problem might no neil: no one was expecting this.

no one was expecting it at all. so maybe we stuled upon it when we least exct it. i aee withadam. i think that there our heroes out there and they do show up in the campaign trail and they are wrot when they get into the system, something turn some awayfrom what they intended t do when they first set out th. neil: hat do you think? >> think that the system is set up for themnot to emrge as heroes. that is not bathing. weelect them to go to washington and fight for us. i agree that things are not working as well as we wi that th would. but it is going to be confrontational. it is going to be essy. it is no set up for ne person to rise up and, i will solve all of this for you.

>> we have had a lot of people do this. >> at the moment you do not realize this. we are blaming the politicians and we elected a ckstar president. let's honestly look at it and say if we had more lois lanes in the media, doi investigative journalism, holding these elected officials to heir standards, we would be iving in anotr place. neil: i don think that in this latest superman movie, clrk kent isn't the reporter. >> that is very dd.

i think it was by design. i don't think th have any attachme to this. get that o of there. neil: i aways wonder how this works. >> how lo does itake them? >> you kw, that is iteresting >> you now,yu two are very knowledgeable about the film. i haven't seen it yet. but i would really take great issue with this. neil: i haveturned on the part of madame. >> i getthat. >> and even though our industry is having ch aard time making money, i think we have a

vibrant media that is instigating everything. we have goodournalists. we have bad journalists. >> exactly. th neil: tey arebacking away. even as this has xploited, it's a fraction of what it was. neil: scotty, bottom lin >> i think that theywill be okay. honestly, i am really not happy that theswitchedt around too much. supermrman is a classic. when y take them o for being a joualist and you make him to be a fisherman, i think the i something wrong. neil: at adam? >> i would like to see it.

have mexcited about this movie. neil: everyone hve a wonderful weekend. the great father's day. ♪ ♪ >> m:he scandals are flying. every day a new revelation the namef our safety, has the government gone too far? et's begin talking about what to do with the leakers. edward snowden right here and right now. >> tom: thanks for joining us here at the top of the stack. everyone by now has heard ed snoen. at first he was at any rater to ianteding in wahington b hero to many people across the coury. his first revelation was simply that government is spyingn us, its citizens. will tha change as we